WING CHUN MEMORIES

interview conducted by David Peterson

"The following interview was conducted by David Peterson, Melbourne-based Wing Chun instructor, with his friend of many years, Rolf Clausnitzer, author of what is arguably the first ever English language book written & published on this popular system. Rolf, now living in Perth, Western Australia, was born in 1941 of a Japanese mother and a German father in Shenyang (Mukden) in what was then known as Manchuria, and spent most of his childhood in Shenyang, Tianjin (Tientsin) and Shanghai, before he moved with his family to Hong Kong in 1954. In this interview, conducted earlier this year, Rolf recounts his earliest memories of the Wing Chun system and some of its most famous practitioners, specifically his meeting with the young Bruce Lee and the patriarch of Wing Chun, Yip Man. Rolf also sets the record straight on Lee's now famous high school boxing match, the first time an accurate account from an eyewitness has ever been reported."

DP: Rolf, you have been associated with Wing Chun for many years now, as both an avid learner, enthusiastic practitioner and, over the last decade or more, an instructor of the system. Quite a lot of people would know of your book, Wing Chun Kung Fu, written in collaboration with Greco Wong back in 1969, but what about your Wing Chun background? How did your interest in the system begin?

RC: Well, although I started my actual Wing Chun training in 1964 (no cracks about my age, please, I feel ancient enough already!), my interest was first aroused 6 years earlier, during my penultimate year at King George V School in Kowloon, Hong Kong. KGV was truly a cosmopolitan school with some 23 nationalities represented, although the British and the Americans formed the two largest ethnic groups. As far as my interest in self defence was concerned, I had previously done a year of Judo under a very impressive Filipino instructor. I had also done a little bit of boxing at school and privately with an American friend. As for Kung Fu, apart from childhood memories of looking at sidewalk comics featuring heroes with supernatural powers and witnessing a Bak Hok (white crane style) demonstration at a Western boxing tournament, my knowledge of the subject was limited to stories (tall ones, I felt!) of Kung Fu feats and powers, told to me by a few of my schoolmates.Then came that memorable afternoon after school which started me off on the Wing Chun path.

DP: What was it that made such an impact on you that particular day?

RC: My younger brother, who was at a different school, came home a little later and his first words were, "Guess what I learnt today? C'mon, throw me a punch!" As Frank (who was exceptionally strong for his age) and I were always fighting and driving our poor mother wild, I stuck out an exploratory jab and was violently yanked off my feet. I ended up with my arms jammed and at the receiving end of rapid fire, light punches to the nose. I asked to try again and this time used a classic corkscrew punch (taken straight out of a booklet on Karate a Japanese friend had sent me some months previously!), with similar results. Boy, was I embarrassed but I just had to know how the hell Frank had done it!

DP: So what was your brother's secret?

RC: Frank explained that he had learnt the techniques from his classmate, an amazing guy who did Chinese boxing and was absolutely fantastic. At that time, Frank's school, St Francis Xavier's College (SFX), was almost 100% Chinese, with only one French boy (I think), a couple of Koreans, and a handful of Portuguese and Eurasians. Anyway, it transpired that this guy loved showing off his Kung Fu skills to a highly appreciative audience.

DP: What sort of things did this "show-off" like to do?

RC: One of his favourite stunts was to stand on one leg and with the other fend off a number of "attackers", pivoting as required. His speed, balance, manoeuvrability, and control were such that it was almost impossible to close in on him without getting kicked. The main reason why Frank had become friendly with him was that, besides having been impressed, Frank was one of only two pupils in the entire school who could beat him at Indian arm wrestling. So there was a mutual feeling of respect. Actually, Frank was very fortunate. This guy invited Frank to his flat where he showed off his impressive and noisy wooden dummy skills. Frank also got to chat with his mother who turned out to be part German as well.

DP: Did you finally get to see this guy for yourself?

RC: You bet. Some weeks later Frank brought home this wizard and introduced him as Bruce Lee Jun Fan. It was the one and only time I met Bruce face to face, but I recall he was clean cut, well groomed, about my height, but considerably lighter. He began by demonstrating what I reckon was part of the Siu Nim Tau form. This had the same effect on me as it has had on countless people since who know nothing about Wing Chun....not very exciting and somewhat puzzling! Then came the mind blowing experience which was to confirm my interest in Wing Chun that my brother had aroused a few weeks earlier with his own little demo. Bruce invited me to "spar" with him, assuring me that I wouldn't get hurt.

DP: What did he mean by "spar"? Did you actually have a fight with him?

RC: He asked me to bring my arms in contact with his, turned his head through 180% so that he couldn't see me, and he gave me the go ahead to box, to go for his face and chest. I tried for what seemed like a minute to score, but he deflected and trapped every jab, hook, cross and uppercut I threw, and his fist kept ending up under my nose. I realise now that what he was doing to me was "blindfolded" Chi Sau of a very high order. From that moment on, I guess I was hooked.

DP: Did he demonstrate anything else to you that day?

RC: Before he left, he showed me some typewritten notes on Wing Chun he had prepared himself. My only recollections are of the faulty English, some reference to the traditional history of Wing Chun, and a misspelling of "Wing Chuin". In turn I showed him the paperback on Karate I mentioned earlier. He asked to borrow it and that's the last I ever saw of it. It had a sort of khaki-green cover and showed one or more hands on the face. It may well still be part of his notable martial arts library.

DP: Lucky for you it wasn't a library book! After that, did you get to see Bruce doing Wing Chun on any other occasion?

RC: Not long after, I was privileged to see Bruce again, not face to face, but in action at the Hong Kong Inter School Boxing Championships. Ironically, his opponent just happened to be good old Gary Elms, one of my schoolmates.

DP: What was Gary Elms like? Did you know him well?

RC: Gary, also nicknamed "Garung", was one of those irrepressible, but likable nuisances. Although he was considerably lighter and smaller, that didn't stop him from pestering me and others. I'd wrestle him to the ground, pinch his nostrils and force grass into his mouth to make him say "Uncle", but he would never submit. As soon as I got up in frustration, he'd jump me again. He was one tough nut.

DP: So, how was their match together? As an eyewitness, what can you say about the fight?

RC: His bout with Bruce turned out to be the most amazing and bizarre boxing match I have ever seen and expect to see. I honestly believe that Gary did not land even one single scoring punch throughout the entire 3 x 1 minute rounds, with Bruce deflecting and taking all of Gary's punches on his arms. Gary was knocked down several times, but he was not knocked out (contrary to what has been reported in various articles and books!) and, even more surprisingly, he did not appear to be hurt or distressed. Each time he was floored, he would immediately jump back up. That's why the referee did not stop the fight. Notwithstanding Gary's extraordinary toughness, I was amazed to see him survive the bout in such good shape. It was not until later when I caught up with Frank that some sort of explanation emerged.

DP: Do you recall what your brother Frank told you about this?

RC: Apparently, when Frank and his friends went to congratulate Bruce after the bout, Bruce was shaking his head and looking far from pleased with himself. His reply to Frank's obvious question was something along the lines of, "Damn it, I couldn't knock the guy out". His rationalisation was that the large (16oz?) gloves neutralised the intended, penetrating effect of tilting the wrist on impact, a practice common to many Wing Chun practitioners (I gather he abandoned this practice in later years). He reckoned that this force was not penetrating the padding and, in any case, Gary was already being propelled backwards from the pushing impact of the glove. He swore that he would continue training until he could achieve the penetration he wanted. He also had his sights set on Peter Burton, a stylish and hard punching boxer from St George's School (which was exclusively for the children of British Armed Forces personnel in Hong Kong), a much bigger and heavier competitor who had TKO'd his opponent in the second round. By the way, Frank and I met Peter (who turned out to be half German as well) at a party a few weeks later and we talked about Bruce, but it's unlikely that such a bout would ever have been approved because of the weight and size differences and, in any case, Bruce left for the USA a few months later to begin a new chapter in his amazing life.

DP: Many fans of Bruce Lee would have read other accounts of this fight, as reported in various publications since his untimely death. As an actual eyewitness to the entire event, what sort of things would you say are wrong with those reports of the match?

RC: I will stick my neck out by stating that not one accurate account, let alone analysis of it, has ever been published. Every single account, including Linda Lee's, contains glaring, basic errors and inaccuracies: the result of the fight, Gary's ethnic origins, the conduct of the bout, even the location, all have been wrongly reported. There's even an incredible example of a published full page photo supposedly depicting Bruce with his back against the ropes. I could be wrong, but I reckon it's another guy altogether, a hapless, unnamed SFX representative being "taken apart" by someone who, from behind, looks suspiciously like Peter Metrevelli, a highly skilled KGV competitor. If no one beats me to it, I'll write the first true and full account of what actually happened, provided I can track down Gary Elms!

DP: Have you lost contact with him over the years?

RC: Yes, and I could kick myself for not having brought up the subject when I caught up with Gary again in a Soho restaurant in the late '60s, but at that time it was not an issue for me. When I last enquired about Gary's whereabouts a few years ago, Frank, who lives in the UK, told me that he seemed to have vanished from the scene. So, Gary, if you're out there somewhere, please get in touch and we'll set the record straight!

DP: That's a real shame. I certainly hope that you'll be able to contact him one day soon. It would be fascinating to hear his account of the fight. Well, after seeing these displays of the Wing Chun system in action, did you decide to take up the art for yourself?

RC: After Bruce had left for the USA, I couldn't stop thinking about Wing Chun. Not long after, I got a schoolmate and good friend, Billy Silvey, sort of interested in Wing Chun and, after some enquiries, a Korean friend of Frank's, Peter Koh, arranged for us to visit a Wing Chun class. We had no idea of what to expect, but it turned out to be a memorable experience, the significance of which did not sink in until years later.

DP: How did you eventually find your way to the class?

RC: It started off with our meeting a Wing Chun practitioner whose name I never did get, but I clearly recall he was good looking and unusually dark skinned. He may very well have had Indian blood in him, and went by the nickname of "Hak Jai" which I think means "black boy" in Cantonese! He took us first to a cinema which may have been the Zenith, an old establishment that showed reruns of old Hollywood and continental films. I doubt if it's still standing. Anyway, as it was in between performances, probably between the 2.30 and 5.30 screenings, it wasn't that busy. This guy took us up the stairs towards the dress circle and there he got Billy and me doing a very crude version of Poon Sau ("rolling hands") after only about 60 seconds' instruction!

DP: That's not a bad effort for a novice! What happened next?

RC: After that, he took us into what was for us unexplored territory, a refugee resettlement area, the name of which I can't recall, but it wasn't far from the cinema. As we came to a low concrete building and walked through the entrance, the first sight that greeted me was of several employees of the KMB (Kowloon Motor Bus Company), drivers and conductors in their khaki uniforms, some practising, some watching, and others just chatting. I don't know if they had just come off a shift or were training before going on a shift, but I clearly recall two busmen, one tall and one short, doing Chi Sau, with the bigger guy driving his partner across the room, in almost a bullying fashion. Then came what was in retrospect a priceless experience.

DP: Please continue!

RC: We were introduced to a friendly, smiling, older gentleman (he would probably have been in his 60's at the time) who turned out to be none other than Yip Man himself. I couldn't speak Cantonese but I made all the respectful gestures and noises. Billy, however, was quite fluent and may have chatted a little with Yip Man, I couldn't swear to it. Anyway, we watched the class for a while and then had to go. We took our leave of Yip Man, with intentions of taking up Wing Chun.

DP: Much has been written over the years about Yip Man concerning his attitude towards teaching foreigners, especially with respect to Bruce Lee's training days. What thoughts do you have on the matter?

RC: Looking back now, I question the much publicised view that Yip Man refused to teach foreigners. The facts are that we were taken specifically to meet Yip and that he greeted us in a friendly manner and was not at all surprised to see us. Billy and I are Eurasian (he's half Irish and half Chinese) and Eurasians were definitely regarded as Westerners at the time. It's debatable, of course, but we could have become the first foreigners to train under Yip Man's supervision.

DP: So, why didn't you start your training at that time? Surely you were just raring to get started?

RC: The truth is both ironic and embarrassing and has bothered me all these years. When I told my parents of my intentions, my over protective mother was absolutely horrified at the thought. She had this notion that I would be getting mixed up with criminal elements in an unsavoury environment. No amount of reasoning and pleading would move her. With both Germanic and Japanese concepts of filial duty and obedience well drilled into me, I had to defer to my mum! Of course, Billy wouldn't join without me. It was one of those classic, "if only..../might have been" experiences that haunt you for the rest of your life!

DP: That being the case, when did you finally take up Wing Chun training?

RC: Well, it was not until 1964, some six years later, after I had finished university in the UK and returned to Hong Kong for a working holiday, that after a combination of enquiries and fortuitous events, I found myself in the presence of Wing Chun's living legend, Wong Shun Leung, but that's another story....

DP: Thank you, Rolf, for some truly fascinating recollections. I look forward to further instalments!

RC: My pleasure, David.

**The author, David Peterson, is a student of Hong Kong-based Wing Chun instructor, Wo